Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from beak.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Wed, 9 Jan 1991 02:12:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Wed, 9 Jan 1991 02:11:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #030 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Re: Planetary Society [Part 1 of 2] NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Jan 91 00:37:27 EST From: John Roberts Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are those of the sender and do not reflect NIST policy or agreement. Subject: Re: Planetary Society [Part 1 of 2] [Because of its length, this reply was split into two parts] >Date: 20 Dec 90 03:03:41 GMT >From: zephyr.ens.tek.com!tektronix!sequent!crg5!szabo@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Nick Szabo) >Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc >Subject: Re: Planetary Society >In article <9012190119.AA07198@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: >>I hope you're not implying that Skylab was the best a space station can be. >>It had several serious design problems, notably limited docking facilities >>and the lack of provision for resupply. It was not *intended* for long-term >>use, at least in its final implementation. >The biggest "design problem" is that it has no paying customers. Of course nobody is going to pay to use Skylab - it's no longer "seaworthy". :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Now as far as Freedom (or reasonable facsimile thereof) is concerned: >Nobody wants to use it (unless they are subsidized nearly 100%). ESA and Japan seem pretty interested in it, and I don't think they expect to be subsidized "nearly 100%". >The micrograv scientists don't want it, *All* of them? As I mentioned before, there are bound to be a wide range of microgravity applications, some more sensitive than others to human presence, and some more in need of direct human attention than others. While it obviously doesn't apply to all cases, I think it's fair to say that the most successful commercial applications of microgravity have been in human-occupied vessels (i.e. Mir). >the deep space mission planners >don't want it. How deep is deep? Some of the proponents of expanded lunar activity argue that some sort of LEO assembly point (again, not necessarily the now-discarded concept for Freedom from early 1990) would be desirable. Ditto for Mars. >It is just a gigantic welfare project taking away money >from the real space program An item which gets very little mention: the Soviets may have built Mir as an economy measure, in order to get a lot of space activity for a relatively low price. The Soviets get more man-hours per year than the US, though they have many fewer manned launches and number of people launched per year. Though the Soviet economy is admittedly highly distorted, in this case it does seem to represent a genuine saving. Such an objective might at least be an idealized goal for a US space station. >(I'm an engineer, who has studied >econ and business on my own because it wasn't in the engineering curiculum. Well, when I studied engineering, I took 4 or 5 courses in economics, up to about the Junior level. I thought the material had some interesting points, but also a number of simplifications so gross as to bring the ultimate usefulness of the models into question. In particular, many functions were taken to be linear which are clearly not linear and parameters were taken to be constant which are well known to vary rapidly over time, and human psychology (i.e. market feedback mechanisms) were not taken properly into account. Nevertheless, I agree that people should try to become familiar with economic theory, because it at least gives some notion of what's going on, which is more than most people seem to have. Regrettably, I did not take any college courses in business/accounting, which would be useful, in light of the suspicious financial math sometimes appearing on this list (i.e. the concept of the [nonindexed] 'dollar' as the definitive measure of wealth). Perhaps you could provide us with insights on the *commercial* development of space. >I work at a company that has grown rapidly in a competitive market, >and exports half of its products overseas, because it teaches its >engineers about business. No flames please. :-) What, a maker of successful common-bus multiprocessor computer systems? Wouldn't dream of it. :-) I got to tour the factory the day they shipped their first commercial system. (BTW, were you aware that the original name was "Sequel", which unfortunately turned out to have already been taken? :-) >>Plausible uses for space stations (not necessarily continuously manned) >>include assembly facilities, >There is little or no need for assembly that cannot be teleoperated. Extremely sophisticated teleoperation would be a great thing to have. Someone should develop it. So far, the Soviets seem to be more daring than the US in areas such as automated docking. As a general rule of thumb, in LEO, machine-aided humans on-site are much more expensive than remotely controlled systems, but are also more versatile and able to cope with unforeseen contingencies. >Amortizing a multi-billion dollar project over a little bit of >assembly is wildly uneconomical. Yes. Building an entire huge space station at current prices *just* for assembly would be silly. >BTW has anybody asked to be >able to assemble something, and stated a price they are willing >to pay? I didn't think so. That would be the ultimate criterion for a commercial space station, such as has been proposed by some groups. It is not always considered completely vital that every government research project pay for itself in commercial contracts. That is more an appropriate role for private industry. As far as potential uses are concerned, some of the proponents of missions to the moon and Mars have stated that there could be a considerable advantage to in-orbit assembly, and that a specific assembly point such as a station would be useful. No such assembly projects have been funded. >>testbeds for human habitation in zero or >>low gravity (i.e. LLNL), >There is no need to test human reaction to prolonged space unless >there is a need to send humans into prolonged space into the near future. >As has been demonstrated there is no such need. You mean no such need for *your* goals. There are legitimate (in my opinion, of course :-) goals which do benefit from ongoing human activity in space. The Augustine Report describes some of these goals, including the "intangible" benefits. [Continued in part 2] John Roberts roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 91 22:43:45 GMT From: ncis.tis.llnl.gov!blackbird!tkelso@lll-winken.llnl.gov (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #793a - Alouette 1 1 00424U 62B-A 1 90363.26635297 .00000233 00000-0 26894-3 0 3793 2 00424 80.4635 93.7482 0023852 129.3887 230.9365 13.67434785409356 ATS 3 1 03029U 67111 A 90359.08761186 -.00000074 00000-0 99999-4 0 4865 2 03029 13.4244 19.5047 0021383 269.3786 90.3902 1.00272681 84707 Cosmos 398 1 04966U 71 16 A 91 4.42365302 .00095883 18535-4 48818-3 0 3275 2 04966 51.5154 81.5436 2133195 175.9889 186.1581 11.36187499614242 Starlette 1 07646U 75010 A 90364.52082390 -.00000033 00000-0 21427-4 0 1828 2 07646 49.8184 103.7793 0205959 119.7539 242.4016 13.82148382802935 LAGEOS 1 08820U 76039 A 90353.19958803 .00000005 00000-0 00000 0 0 1778 2 08820 109.8636 58.5065 0044495 199.5087 160.4038 6.38664335 85758 GOES 2 1 10061U 77048 A 91 3.05434394 -.00000257 00000-0 99999-4 0 5393 2 10061 8.5325 61.2685 0005273 343.7736 16.1743 1.00255680 51017 IUE 1 10637U 78012 A 90359.21452346 -.00000185 00000-0 99999-4 0 1860 2 10637 32.6023 115.8507 1418900 358.4795 1.0425 1.00248863 8378 GPS-0001 1 10684U 78020 A 90364.39014066 .00000005 00000-0 99999-4 0 5863 2 10684 63.8203 83.4832 0124339 198.5330 161.0464 2.00554870 79786 GPS-0002 1 10893U 78 47 A 90363.38443660 -.00000023 00000-0 00000 0 0 2912 2 10893 64.3011 324.3375 0169594 23.7657 336.9900 2.00538052 92588 GOES 3 1 10953U 78062 A 90353.15052083 .00000109 00000-0 99999-4 0 209 2 10953 7.4179 64.2373 0006320 119.2497 144.6936 1.00246039 6775 SeaSat 1 1 10967U 78064 A 91 1.52446704 .00000846 00000-0 33314-3 0 4452 2 10967 108.0226 9.6335 0003136 257.9937 102.0842 14.36108443654922 GPS-0003 1 11054U 78093 A 90363.14528210 -.00000022 00000-0 00000 0 0 3361 2 11054 63.8245 320.5523 0060639 119.1027 241.4997 2.00570712 89597 Nimbus 7 1 11080U 78098 A 90360.18084632 .00000098 00000-0 11775-3 0 7261 2 11080 99.1802 260.5966 0008569 293.6673 66.3584 13.83485770614581 GPS-0004 1 11141U 78112 A 90365.25459858 .00000005 00000-0 00000 0 0 1004 2 11141 63.7561 83.2864 0058958 313.2047 46.3395 2.00549936 88334 GPS-0005 1 11690U 80 11 A 90364.39732761 .00000006 00000-0 00000 0 0 836 2 11690 64.2905 85.5758 0120663 202.4230 157.0752 2.00553215 94175 GPS-0006 1 11783U 80 32 A 91 4.18648674 -.00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 3180 2 11783 63.6166 319.8865 0131825 59.8017 301.4581 2.00562179 78357 GOES 5 1 12472U 81049 A 91 1.27659246 .00000083 00000-0 99999-4 0 250 2 12472 3.9614 73.2574 0001286 229.1779 130.5565 1.00217852 34214 SME 1 12887U 81100 A 91 1.16829941 .00130058 00000-0 80552-3 0 370 2 12887 97.6020 68.3615 0001225 76.0875 284.0136 15.76682790512153 Salyut 7 1 13138U 82 33 A 91 3.62707863 .00256473 00000-0 52295-3 0 7096 2 13138 51.5948 351.0539 0003128 54.9199 305.1492 15.98287141496466 Cosmos 1383 1 13301U 82 66 A 90353.97354722 .00000115 00000-0 12442-3 0 6797 2 13301 82.9315 164.6154 0028569 11.5223 348.6581 13.67867005423073 LandSat 4 1 13367U 82 72 A 90365.75614919 .00000930 00000-0 21630-3 0 6303 2 13367 98.1403 64.1293 0002622 227.0569 133.0408 14.57146826450074 IRAS 1 13777U 83 4 A 91 1.41057356 .00000535 00000-0 39440-3 0 8863 2 13777 99.0123 200.0535 0012164 196.2886 163.7890 13.98863624 74656 Cosmos 1447 1 13916U 83 21 A 90364.00222143 .00000046 00000-0 42013-4 0 7745 2 13916 82.9432 227.2862 0037528 316.6581 43.1624 13.74086481389567 TDRS 1 1 13969U 83 26 B 90365.37607102 .00000128 00000-0 99999-4 0 2270 2 13969 4.9306 64.2715 0003287 211.8083 148.0600 1.00276447 1326 GOES 6 1 14050U 83 41 A 90365.31192064 .00000120 00000-0 99999-4 0 3463 2 14050 2.7293 75.8649 0000928 305.7919 53.7386 1.00269843 114 OSCAR 10 1 14129U 83 58 B 91 3.16142974 .00000017 00000-0 00000 0 0 6329 2 14129 25.9096 167.3234 5971064 205.6904 105.3887 2.05880218 28853 GPS-0008 1 14189U 83 72 A 90365.62872861 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 8820 2 14189 63.4641 81.6805 0144595 222.7519 136.1571 2.00569351 54726 LandSat 5 1 14780U 84 21 A 90365.78709825 .00000427 00000-0 99999-4 0 4799 2 14780 98.2608 62.9445 0001607 154.8695 205.2580 14.57075281363494 UoSat 2 1 14781U 84 21 B 90364.62968659 .00001340 00000-0 25249-3 0 8968 2 14781 97.9252 50.5452 0012778 349.8055 10.2899 14.66016601364741 GPS-0009 1 15039U 84 59 A 91 3.79235711 .00000003 00000-0 00000 0 0 1480 2 15039 63.2123 80.7075 0026588 225.0577 134.7839 2.00566716 48067 Cosmos 1574 1 15055U 84 62 A 90364.76590260 .00000107 00000-0 10412-3 0 151 2 15055 82.9570 277.3873 0027789 132.6232 227.7262 13.73399623327059 GPS-0010 1 15271U 84 97 A 90365.24579213 -.00000022 00000-0 00000 0 0 9860 2 15271 63.1092 319.4764 0111269 329.5104 29.8322 2.00562315 45107 Cosmos 1602 1 15331U 84105 A 90365.88733976 .00002365 00000-0 31520-3 0 4495 2 15331 82.5361 177.5528 0024649 45.4783 314.8454 14.79062261337304 NOAA 9 1 15427U 84123 A 90362.25961523 .00000357 00000-0 21309-3 0 6877 2 15427 99.1719 6.6760 0015058 180.9562 179.1577 14.12764946311389 Cosmos 1686 1 16095U 85 86 A 91 3.81478878 .00211365 00000-0 43208-3 0 8775 2 16095 51.6046 350.0507 0002644 53.4372 307.4419 15.98344139496492 GPS-0011 1 16129U 85 93 A 91 1.95982653 .00000005 00000-0 00000 0 0 7039 2 16129 63.9871 81.9173 0123833 148.2569 212.5399 2.00564011 38347 Mir 1 16609U 86 17 A 91 4.58505381 .00038272 00000-0 43311-3 0 1802 2 16609 51.6104 36.1109 0025638 82.9739 277.4237 15.61636145279551 SPOT 1 1 16613U 86 19 A 91 1.13827282 .00000359 00000-0 18648-3 0 2096 2 16613 98.7162 77.8235 0001080 21.2360 338.8877 14.20030266 92028 Cosmos 1766 1 16881U 86 55 A 91 3.65721153 .00003857 00000-0 52156-3 0 2708 2 16881 82.5191 233.7928 0024476 54.8925 305.4357 14.78624117238766 EGP 1 16908U 86 61 A 90364.45042487 -.00000030 00000-0 67192-4 0 3303 2 16908 50.0106 12.6288 0011184 333.8315 26.1953 12.44391037199296 NOAA 10 1 16969U 86 73 A 91 3.42600374 .00000417 00000-0 19857-3 0 5355 2 16969 98.5821 31.7278 0014463 50.2233 310.0222 14.23845056223103 MOS-1 1 17527U 87 18 A 91 4.20214011 .00000406 00000-0 32758-3 0 7335 2 17527 99.0924 78.9781 0000971 140.0446 220.0799 13.94889352197281 GOES 7 1 17561U 87 22 A 91 1.02068881 -.00000044 00000-0 99999-4 0 7045 2 17561 0.0363 117.5998 0005999 263.2112 339.1078 1.00267968 7550 Kvant-1 1 17845U 87 30 A 91 3.81713317 .00032766 00000-0 37277-3 0 4344 2 17845 51.6158 39.9880 0025812 80.3446 280.0731 15.61571201214167 DMSP B5D2-3 1 18123U 87 53 A 90365.87963451 .00000173 00000-0 99999-4 0 8140 2 18123 98.8086 193.8303 0014587 177.2741 182.8518 14.14269832182348 RS-10/11 1 18129U 87 54 A 91 3.91948249 .00000118 00000-0 11833-3 0 4808 2 18129 82.9244 180.2190 0010556 284.4224 75.5740 13.72133951176979 Meteor 2-16 1 18312U 87 68 A 91 3.77499619 .00000219 00000-0 18868-3 0 5935 2 18312 82.5558 131.3196 0013452 54.2155 306.0253 13.83712921170724 Meteor 2-17 1 18820U 88 5 A 91 3.54431933 .00000107 00000-0 90414-4 0 4417 2 18820 82.5431 191.1772 0017220 117.8193 242.4713 13.84406624147906 DMSP B5D2-4 1 18822U 88 6 A 90365.91255425 .00000492 00000-0 24084-3 0 7577 2 18822 98.6187 240.5690 0007656 62.0499 298.1453 14.21687394150915 Glonass 34 1 19163U 88 43 A 90364.29658635 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 1206 2 19163 64.9207 152.5744 0007032 180.8050 179.1742 2.13102627 20324 Glonass 36 1 19165U 88 43 C 90365.76134226 .00000020 00000-0 00000 0 0 1284 2 19165 64.9030 152.5289 0003441 347.0778 12.8834 2.13102838 20350 AO-13 1 19216U 88 51 B 91 4.47704348 .00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 2314 2 19216 56.8297 117.3324 7099742 244.1147 29.3547 2.09699155 19624 OKEAN 1 1 19274U 88 56 A 90365.01492853 .00001932 00000-0 26473-3 0 222 2 19274 82.5157 335.8911 0021057 195.2832 164.7922 14.77843898133982 Meteor 3-2 1 19336U 88 64 A 91 3.76674524 .00000042 00000-0 96169-4 0 6956 2 19336 82.5417 135.5294 0016610 169.1289 191.0199 13.16908751117358 Glonass 39 1 19503U 88 85 C 90365.31182956 -.00000017 00000-0 99999-4 0 387 2 19503 65.4025 31.9518 0006284 202.3413 157.6926 2.13103649 17838 NOAA 11 1 19531U 88 89 A 90365.41093826 .00000700 00000-0 40404-3 0 4401 2 19531 99.0090 314.1992 0013000 88.9486 271.3174 14.11845756116795 TDRS 2 1 19548U 88 91 B 90363.21290838 .00000115 00000-0 99999-4 0 2288 2 19548 0.5955 82.1169 0003870 188.3787 89.3807 1.00277829 6872 Glonass 40 1 19749U 89 1 A 90365.35284004 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 8223 2 19749 64.8595 152.2078 0004781 271.4486 88.4721 2.13102303 15366 Glonass 41 1 19750U 89 1 B 90365.41108852 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 8813 2 19750 64.8783 152.2275 0004773 242.6769 117.2520 2.13102232 15360 GPS BII-01 1 19802U 89 13 A 90350.38029847 .00000017 00000-0 99999-4 0 2281 2 19802 55.0450 190.2251 0052192 161.1231 199.1398 2.00553388 13407 Akebono 1 19822U 89 16 A 91 1.41700291 .00024989 00000-0 17904-2 0 8816 2 19822 75.0758 141.0270 4124350 94.3618 312.5911 7.19958255 14010 Meteor 2-18 1 19851U 89 18 A 90364.66481083 .00000191 00000-0 16196-3 0 3922 2 19851 82.5212 71.9302 0014454 167.9167 192.2346 13.84043196 92741 MOP-1 1 19876U 89 20 B 90360.73829951 .00000025 00000-0 99999-4 0 1754 2 19876 0.2103 6.0820 0007143 238.4239 116.0807 1.00282156 2595 TDRS 3 1 19883U 89 21 B 90347.88420365 -.00000235 00000-0 99999-4 0 2238 2 19883 0.5799 80.7080 0003535 181.4568 97.8074 1.00267910 76692 GPS BII-02 1 20061U 89 44 A 90343.73124429 -.00000034 00000-0 99999-4 0 2311 2 20061 54.8388 8.7128 0089319 181.9510 178.0573 2.00566968 11014 Nadezhda 1 1 20103U 89 50 A 90364.84464379 .00000118 00000-0 11493-3 0 2898 2 20103 82.9617 140.0471 0036352 209.8714 150.0373 13.73635031 74718 GPS BII-03 1 20185U 89 64 A 90350.05472694 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 1726 2 20185 54.9002 191.0630 0021894 161.1624 198.9908 2.00573506 9712 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #030 *******************